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Monday, January 09, 2006
HDTV and the land of 1080p
Have been really craving a new HDTV for the last year or so. Specifically, some of the new rear projection DLP4 1080p style TV's. Well, HP has entered the consumer electronics TV market with great plasma and DLP TV's, and have a pretty good DLP4 1080p version in both a 58" and 65" model (MD5880n and MD6580n). Most importantly, it beats all the current competetors, by actually recognizing 1080p input sources (most of the Mitsubishi and Samsung only upconvert 480p/720p/1080i to the internal 1080p display, but don't actually allow 1080p content to be put in).Well, finally broke down and ordered one of the 58" ones at a pretty hefty discount on one of the online forum "special purchase" deals (through TV Authority). It should be here sometime next week. Now, I have to figure out what to do with the old Mitsubishi WS-55411 and probably find a nice new expensive entertainment stand for this new one. I also have to get my HTPC set back up with DVI->HDMI out ready to display awesome 1920x1080 windows desktop (and ready for the new HD-DVD players). For now, the Xbox is proving to be an AWESOME media center, and it should do very well with 1080i content that can be de-interlaced and displayed very well on the 1080p display.
There is a good "owners" forum thread on AVS Forums.
Here is a temporary picture of the new cabinet I got from a local furniture store. We have small children with curious fingers, so I needed an enclosed cabinet for the components. After searching and being frustrated with what was available (at even exhorbant $5000 price tags), I was glad to find this. It is higher than I wanted it to be (at around 26") and would have liked something closer to 20", but I think it will be ok. Now, if I could just get the dang TV...
Update (1/28/2006): I cancelled my order with TV Authority as it has now been almost 20 days with no expectation of it even being shipped yet. HP has dropped the price by $500, and I'm not sure when I will be able to get the TV. Looks like it is going to be an HD-less Superbowl. Actually, I have my 30" Vizio LCD...
Update (2/3/2006): convinced me to keep my order, and offered to air ship the new TV to get it here before super bowl weekend. Well, it got here and it is huge. I got the new firmware updated on it, which fixes a LOT of problems, but there are still some small nuances (audio over HDMI is a bit flakey...fortunately I don't care too much about that, as I normally have the TV speakers off and use the stereo). Also, the color wheel is pretty loud. It is a high pitched whine that is just at the edge of audible range (sort of like a monitor running at 60Hz). Anyway, it is sort of driving me nuts. I wasn't tremendously impressed with the picture quality of standard def or even Showtime HD broadcast, after all the rave reviews. And I can actually see some nasty bright sparkling random patterns in the broadcast shows. But then I put in Ice Age to take a look at some DVD content and a good digital original source. This movie has some great color saturations and very detailed fine lines. Well, the content was simply amazing. This isn't even HD content, and yet it was as pretty as anything I'd seen. Very nice. Star Wars Episode II was also very crisp and clear and rendered well on the display. I'm going to try to hook up my HTPC tomorrow and check out some actual 1080p HD WMV content on it. It should be impressive.
Comments:
Hey Jeff,
Nice tv. Have you recieved it yet? Why DLP, is that a better picture than plasma? I've been thinking about swapping ours out too. My dad just got a 50 inch plasma and I was impressed. If I do get one I like that option they now have with built in tuners. Any comment on that? Also, I saw that you wrote something on HD DVD players. Is that just a dvd player with HDMI connectivity? I saw a Toshiba with HDMI at Costco for $79. I am still wanting to get a new DVD player possibly with Recording capabilities with the HDMI. Anyways, nice tv. Let me know when you get it.
Also, lets talk about brewing. I have time in Feb to do it. Like you said last time we talked that a weekday would be a good time.
Jason.
Nice tv. Have you recieved it yet? Why DLP, is that a better picture than plasma? I've been thinking about swapping ours out too. My dad just got a 50 inch plasma and I was impressed. If I do get one I like that option they now have with built in tuners. Any comment on that? Also, I saw that you wrote something on HD DVD players. Is that just a dvd player with HDMI connectivity? I saw a Toshiba with HDMI at Costco for $79. I am still wanting to get a new DVD player possibly with Recording capabilities with the HDMI. Anyways, nice tv. Let me know when you get it.
Also, lets talk about brewing. I have time in Feb to do it. Like you said last time we talked that a weekday would be a good time.
Jason.
# posted by 
: 8:28 AM
: 8:28 AM
Haven't gotten it yet. DLP can do higher resolution than Plasma right now. But plasma is pretty nice (and a fair price if you are looking at around a 42" display). Still DLP is cheaper for the same size (but it isn't flat panel). Built in HD tuners are ok, but do nothing for me, since I have satelight. As for HD DVD players, yes, there are a VERY FEW that will upsample the normal DVD content (which is NOT HD, even progressive scan DVD players) to 720p or 1080i HiDef, but you still don't have hidef original source. Now, the industry is just starting to roll out the BlueRay DVD (Sony) and the HD DVD (Microsoft/Toshiba) competing format standards for hidef DVD content. This is going to take about a year to shake out and see who wins...
HDMI doesn't really have anything to do with the HD DVD, except that HDMI allows the data to be fully digital, carry both video and sound information on the one cable, and Hollywood likes it, because they can set copy protection flags in the stream...
-JM
HDMI doesn't really have anything to do with the HD DVD, except that HDMI allows the data to be fully digital, carry both video and sound information on the one cable, and Hollywood likes it, because they can set copy protection flags in the stream...
-JM
From: Hoodenpyle
To: Jeff McClain
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: New comment on HDTV and the land of 1080p
On the built in tuner I thought it works with sat. which just replaces your box. You just put in your card and it reads Dish Network, DirectTv etc....I'm sure you still have to plug your coxial cable from the sat. but that would be all. Is that wrong?
As for this this new Dvd will that have new sources as DVD's? Meaning will it only show it in HD if it was filmed in HD. Or will it convert old movies such as ones that are less than 5 yrs old? Also, I believe that Toshiba DVD player at costco will upcovert.
-Jason
To: Jeff McClain
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: New comment on HDTV and the land of 1080p
On the built in tuner I thought it works with sat. which just replaces your box. You just put in your card and it reads Dish Network, DirectTv etc....I'm sure you still have to plug your coxial cable from the sat. but that would be all. Is that wrong?
As for this this new Dvd will that have new sources as DVD's? Meaning will it only show it in HD if it was filmed in HD. Or will it convert old movies such as ones that are less than 5 yrs old? Also, I believe that Toshiba DVD player at costco will upcovert.
-Jason
# posted by : 8:18 AM
: 8:18 AM
That is wrong. It ONLY works with Cable. Thank congress for not rolling satelight into the whole "cable card" mandate. That has left Dish/DirecTV to do whatever they want, and they don't support cable cards. ;)
Correct on the new HD DVD's. You will have to "rebuy" HD DVD content for this new player. They basically have to go back and resample/master the original 24fps film content to digital format for the HD. Now, I've heard that most of these players will also play your old normal DVD's as well, but it is no better than current DVD playback (i.e. no benefit if you don't get the new HD DVD remastered content on these new DVD players). There are getting to be quite a few DVD players that will try to upconvert the content, but that is no different than ANY HDTV produced in the last 7 years (i.e. almost every HDTV upconverts whatever signal/content you are getting to a native pixel content resolution...so plasma typically converts to 720p, as do last years DLP's, mine is going to 1080p). But the point is, you are "upsampling" from lower resolution material to begin with, so, in many cases, you just upsample bad image rather than STARTING with HiDef content. It is the same as standard def broad casts on an HDTV. All of that content is upsampled on your HDTV to show it to you...and it looks like crap. Mostly because you are blowing up 240 lines of information to display on a 720 line 55" (or bigger) TV. Granted, at least DVD current content is normally progressive 480p/24 (as opposed to broadcast standard def TV being interlaced 480i/30), so it is a little better, but it still isn't "hidef".
-JM
Correct on the new HD DVD's. You will have to "rebuy" HD DVD content for this new player. They basically have to go back and resample/master the original 24fps film content to digital format for the HD. Now, I've heard that most of these players will also play your old normal DVD's as well, but it is no better than current DVD playback (i.e. no benefit if you don't get the new HD DVD remastered content on these new DVD players). There are getting to be quite a few DVD players that will try to upconvert the content, but that is no different than ANY HDTV produced in the last 7 years (i.e. almost every HDTV upconverts whatever signal/content you are getting to a native pixel content resolution...so plasma typically converts to 720p, as do last years DLP's, mine is going to 1080p). But the point is, you are "upsampling" from lower resolution material to begin with, so, in many cases, you just upsample bad image rather than STARTING with HiDef content. It is the same as standard def broad casts on an HDTV. All of that content is upsampled on your HDTV to show it to you...and it looks like crap. Mostly because you are blowing up 240 lines of information to display on a 720 line 55" (or bigger) TV. Granted, at least DVD current content is normally progressive 480p/24 (as opposed to broadcast standard def TV being interlaced 480i/30), so it is a little better, but it still isn't "hidef".
-JM
Update: Here is the whole story from start to now...I'm beat...sigh.
I purchased an HP MD5880N DLP (serial number CNK5395165) on 2/1/2006 from TV Authority (see attached order confirmation).
TV functioned with no major complaints (door didn’t shut properly to turn off the front panel light and it made a little noise in the color wheel) until around mid October, 2006 when I noticed a pretty obvious dark shadow across the top of the screen that obscured about 3/4ths of an inch of the picture (you could see a faint image behind the shadow, so something appeared to be blocking the picture). Shadow was present on all inputs (SVideo, Component and HDMI).
Contacted HP care on 11/18/2006 to complain about the issue, and was quickly setup with a service call. Service technician came out on 11/26/2006 and ran through diagnostics and said it needed to have the light engine replaced. He made the arrangement with HP and both a light engine AND main board were ordered and sent out. He returned on around 12/1/2006 to install both. I noted that the replacement light engine was dusty and did NOT appear to be new. After he had installed everything, we began using the TV.
Noted a very noticeable smudge (especially during bright scenes) in the very center of the screen and a very loud screeching sound began to come from the left rear portion of the set. Also a faint light was present at the top of the screen (not a single line, but more of just a back light about 2 inches across the entire top of the screen, extremely annoying during dark scenes or movies with the black bars at top/bottom). Issues were present from all inputs (SVideo, Component and HDMI). Called HP support again. They confirmed a new light engine was needed. One was sent on 12/10/2006 and the same service technician came out to install the new one. When he removed the old light engine, he made note of it looking like it was a refurbished unit and there was also a noticeable scratch on the lens. The new replacement light engine looked much cleaner and new and was free of any scratches on the lens.
After the new light engine was installed, we watched and still noticed the faint light present from all inputs. But we were willing to live with that. Then, on 12/23/2006, while watching a program, the left half of the screen jerked and 32 vertical lines showed up across the whole left portion of the screen. Periodically, the right half of the screen would display very poor color banding and dithering. Additionally, the display would at times correct itself and then go bad again or the whole picture would just shut down. Contacted HP support again, and was informed a replacement TV would be shipped out.
The new TV arrived on 1/6/2006 (after 5 delayed delivery dates passed). We have been without a TV for 2 weeks at this point. The new TV was delivered, and setup. After allowing it to come to room temperature, it was turned on, and everything appeared to work perfectly from all inputs for over 6 hours. We went out to dinner and returned. I powered up the unit, and only the left half of the display turned on. At this point, my jaw hit the floor and my wife asked if I was joking. Powered unit off. Unplugged it for 30 seconds. Plugged it back in, and turned it on. Same result. Also tried to hold the power button in for 6 seconds to reset the TV to factory default settings (can you tell I’ve been through the procedure a couple times with customer support by now?). Same result.
TV has >12" of space behind it, good ventilation and is on a flat stand and no obscured air flow above or to the sides of it.
At this point, I've had it. I don't know what to do. I emailed TV Authority to see if they could help at all. I would even take a swap for a comparable Samsung. I know I don't want to waste any more evenings without a TV trying another HP replacement.
I purchased an HP MD5880N DLP (serial number CNK5395165) on 2/1/2006 from TV Authority (see attached order confirmation).
TV functioned with no major complaints (door didn’t shut properly to turn off the front panel light and it made a little noise in the color wheel) until around mid October, 2006 when I noticed a pretty obvious dark shadow across the top of the screen that obscured about 3/4ths of an inch of the picture (you could see a faint image behind the shadow, so something appeared to be blocking the picture). Shadow was present on all inputs (SVideo, Component and HDMI).
Contacted HP care on 11/18/2006 to complain about the issue, and was quickly setup with a service call. Service technician came out on 11/26/2006 and ran through diagnostics and said it needed to have the light engine replaced. He made the arrangement with HP and both a light engine AND main board were ordered and sent out. He returned on around 12/1/2006 to install both. I noted that the replacement light engine was dusty and did NOT appear to be new. After he had installed everything, we began using the TV.
Noted a very noticeable smudge (especially during bright scenes) in the very center of the screen and a very loud screeching sound began to come from the left rear portion of the set. Also a faint light was present at the top of the screen (not a single line, but more of just a back light about 2 inches across the entire top of the screen, extremely annoying during dark scenes or movies with the black bars at top/bottom). Issues were present from all inputs (SVideo, Component and HDMI). Called HP support again. They confirmed a new light engine was needed. One was sent on 12/10/2006 and the same service technician came out to install the new one. When he removed the old light engine, he made note of it looking like it was a refurbished unit and there was also a noticeable scratch on the lens. The new replacement light engine looked much cleaner and new and was free of any scratches on the lens.
After the new light engine was installed, we watched and still noticed the faint light present from all inputs. But we were willing to live with that. Then, on 12/23/2006, while watching a program, the left half of the screen jerked and 32 vertical lines showed up across the whole left portion of the screen. Periodically, the right half of the screen would display very poor color banding and dithering. Additionally, the display would at times correct itself and then go bad again or the whole picture would just shut down. Contacted HP support again, and was informed a replacement TV would be shipped out.
The new TV arrived on 1/6/2006 (after 5 delayed delivery dates passed). We have been without a TV for 2 weeks at this point. The new TV was delivered, and setup. After allowing it to come to room temperature, it was turned on, and everything appeared to work perfectly from all inputs for over 6 hours. We went out to dinner and returned. I powered up the unit, and only the left half of the display turned on. At this point, my jaw hit the floor and my wife asked if I was joking. Powered unit off. Unplugged it for 30 seconds. Plugged it back in, and turned it on. Same result. Also tried to hold the power button in for 6 seconds to reset the TV to factory default settings (can you tell I’ve been through the procedure a couple times with customer support by now?). Same result.
TV has >12" of space behind it, good ventilation and is on a flat stand and no obscured air flow above or to the sides of it.
At this point, I've had it. I don't know what to do. I emailed TV Authority to see if they could help at all. I would even take a swap for a comparable Samsung. I know I don't want to waste any more evenings without a TV trying another HP replacement.
HP has agreed to a "buy back" of my TV for 65% of original purchase price. I've taken it and I just came home with a brand new Sony 60" A2000 XBR (LCoS) TV. So far, so good. For one thing, all my universal remotes work perfect with it, so I'm back down to only one or two remotes (still don't know what the XBox 360 emulates or needs for codes...the old XBox was an RCA DVD player).
-Jeff
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-Jeff
